How does initiative and turn order work with multiple PCs and enemies?
How does initiative and turn order work with multiple PCs and enemies? As I understand it, having initiative doesn't necessarily mean you act first, it just means you are in control of what's happening and can make choices, choose who to attack, etc. If the enemy has initiative, it means you need to respond to whatever they do.
Say the PCs are fighting two groups of broken. PCs Merry and Pippin have taken some damage already and aren't really fighters, so they just want to avoid getting hit more. They rolled poorly and do not have initiative. The PC Boromir is a combat monster with ironclad, swordmaster, shieldmaster, and weapon master who would like nothing more than to smash the enemy, and he has initiative. For narrative reasons, the NPC broken groups are all trying to take down Boromir. So what happens?
- Boromir has initiative, so he uses strike on one of the broken groups.
- The broken want to target Boromir. Boromir attacked one, so that seems to "use" its turn. What does the other group do? Can it do anything if it doesn't have initiative? Can it attack Boromir and force a clash, even though it doesn't have initiative?
- What can Merry and Pippin do? They don't have initiative, so they can't be proactive. The enemies aren't targeting them, so they don't have anything to respond to.
How would I run this as a GM?
Say the PCs are fighting two groups of broken. PCs Merry and Pippin have taken some damage already and aren't really fighters, so they just want to avoid getting hit more. They rolled poorly and do not have initiative. The PC Boromir is a combat monster with ironclad, swordmaster, shieldmaster, and weapon master who would like nothing more than to smash the enemy, and he has initiative. For narrative reasons, the NPC broken groups are all trying to take down Boromir. So what happens?
- Boromir has initiative, so he uses strike on one of the broken groups.
- The broken want to target Boromir. Boromir attacked one, so that seems to "use" its turn. What does the other group do? Can it do anything if it doesn't have initiative? Can it attack Boromir and force a clash, even though it doesn't have initiative?
- What can Merry and Pippin do? They don't have initiative, so they can't be proactive. The enemies aren't targeting them, so they don't have anything to respond to.
How would I run this as a GM?
My thoughts:
ReplyDelete- Boromir is good to go. Can Strike, Secure an Advantage, Aid Your Ally, etc.
- If Broken pack #2 wants to attack Boromir, I'd see what happens as an outcome of Boromir's action. If he scores a strong hit, he's holding both packs at bay. On a weak hit or miss, he's getting swarmed. A GM might decide to inflict harm from both packs in a single outcome, but personally I'd save something like that for dramatic moments or dire failures. Also, if we're looking to the movie as a model, the broken are trying to get at Merry and Pippin, so Boromir's failure might mean that he's unable to hold them off and they get past him.
You can also decide to force a Face Danger move for Boromir, even when he has initiative, to represent the heightened danger and obstacle of trying to keep two packs at bay. If he succeeds, he does it, and is in good position to keep from getting overwhelmed. If not, he might face harm from both packs or one pack gets around him and threatens Merry and Pippin directly.
Keep in mind that initiative is not trying to emulate turn order. Keep the focus on PC's, and have them take proactive moves or reactive moves as appropriate. Think of it in a cinematic fashion, where two packs of enemies just represent a crap-load of foes. They don't attack in any sort of order; instead, more of them complicates the situation and creates more danger. Bounce the narration between PC's with initiative and those without. Have the outcome of one player's move impact the setup for another. Don't ever think "OK, now it's the broken's turn." Instead, it's "The broken are swarming you from all sides. There's too many of them to count. What do you do?" In Ironsworn, it's always the player's turn.
- Merry and Pippin would probably be interested in trying to help Boromir. Face Danger would be an appropriate move as they scramble to pick up some rocks and start using those hobbit rock-throwing skills. Per the text summary in the rulebook, this is them "trying to get back into the fight." If they get back initiative, they realize the rocks are surprisingly effective and can start doing some real harm. If not, they might have to try something else. Perhaps they Face Danger to muster their courage, draw their daggers, and wade into the fight.
If Merry and Pippin decide to just try to get away, the fact that the broken (in your example) are all focusing on Boromir might even make that automatic. No move required. If other broken are nearby, they'll need to Face Danger to get clear.
Finally, Boromir might decide to frame his action as Aid Your Ally, especially if he's got some momentum to burn. "I move forward to hold them off", the player says, "giving you some breathing room." On a strong hit, I'd probably be a generous GM and give Merry and Pippin both initiative.
An addendum: Managing a table of folks with this fairly loose construct can test your GM skills. If you've got experience with PbtA games (i.e. Dungeon World), it'll flow pretty similarly. Initiative is a mechanical layer to help manage the tempo and flow, but isn't trying to mimic typical initiative in other games (i.e. DnD). Embrace the chaos and keep the spotlight moving between characters.
ReplyDeleteAddendum #2: With 5 players at the table, you might want to use some sort of simple visual cue to keep track of who has initiative. Maybe like an index card folded in half to make a tent? "I have initiative" written on one side. "I don't have initiative" written on the other. Players flip them around as appropriate. Maybe even use another index card with "Give me the spotlight" and "I'm good" written on opposing sides. Once a player gets some focus and makes a move, they flip their card around. When everyone's card reads "I'm good", everyone flips back to "Give me the spotlight". As the GM, you can just glance around the table and sort out everyone's initiative status and who needs some spotlight time to ensure no one gets lost in the mix.
ReplyDeleteHope all that helps and doesn't clutter up the issue.
Those are really good answers. I'm used to systems with more defined initiative (Shadowrun, various Star Wars systems, D&D, Exalted, etc.) so I was trying to read that into the initiative section of this game. It makes sense to just switch around based on what's happening, though I would still try to give each player approximately equal time in the spotlight. Maybe index cards, like you suggested, or maybe I'll poach the light side/dark side chips from Star Wars. It may also work to let the players decide who wants to act next, similar to the example in the rulebook.
ReplyDeleteI find it requires a shift in mindset to properly understand the initiative with multiple parties involved. PbtA games usually don't have a "status" to mechanically track that a PC is subject of snowballing partial success / failure, so the comparison is not obvious. Coming from other more traditional systems, I would either associate initiative with turn order, or advantage >>against a specific opponent<< (I have the initiative on opponent X).
ReplyDeleteWhereas losing the initiative in Ironsworn really means that "you are not in a good position to act". So you must work to put yourself in a better position, or still try to clash with a poor fictional positioning (higher risk). Even if someone has no one facing him in battle, not having the initiative could mean they tripped, lost balance, been separated or got their leg stuck. Or maybe they rolled downslope after being hit, they must climb back to rejoin the battle. Or they must maneuver around obstacles.
I really like the idea of having a visual indicator to tell whether you got the initiative or not (whether you are in advantageous position or not). Just flip a poker chip, one side is "Initiative" and the other side is "Not Initiative". Just having this helps understanding that your initiative is not an advantage on a specific opponent, but rather in the overall scene.
Fantastic input, Etienne Lefebvre. Thank you!
ReplyDeleteShawn Tomkin Thanks. I had posted the same question way back when you launched Ironsworn and you did clarify at the time :)
ReplyDeleteEtienne Lefebvre ... The student has become the master...
ReplyDelete