I finished my first solo session of Ironsworn yesterday.
I finished my first solo session of Ironsworn yesterday. Overall I thought it was fantastic! However, I had some questions regarding combat, specifically about Initiative and how "non-combat" moves figure into it.
Now onto my question. The only moves that directly mention Initiate within the move's text itself are the combat moves, most notably "Strike" and "Clash." So, I found myself a little at a loss about how to handle initiative loss or gain when preforming moves like "Face Danger" or "Secure an Advantage."
If I have initiative and preform a "Secure an Advantage" or "Face Danger" move but roll only a Weak Hit, do I automatically lose initiative no matter the other results of the roll? Or can I hold onto Initiative if it makes sense in the narrative.
A weak hit on "Secure an Advantage" says that the advantage created is fleeting... but you still have the advantage for at least a few moments, so wouldn't it make sense to keep hold of the initiative in that situation, so long as you act quickly enough to take advantage of it?
Were I to "Face Danger", and roll a weak hit, could I decide to "Endure Harm" or lose momentum as the cost of my weak hit, but keep initiative, or would I need to suffer both the cost and lose initiative?
I guess and easier way to ask this would be: Is gaining/holding initiative strictly tied to Strong Hits, while weak hits will always lose you initiate, regardless of what move was rolled and any other costs involved?
Can a weak hit on "Face Danger" ever gain you initiative in exchange for some other, greater cost (getting hurt, losing supplies, etc)?
On a related note: If initiative not not strictly tied to Strong/Weak Hits, then should I interpret the text of "End The Fight" strictly as it's written, so that it can only follow a Strong Hit, or should I interpret that as meaning it can only be carried out while you have initiative?
I really hope I made at least a little sense amidst all that rambling!
Now onto my question. The only moves that directly mention Initiate within the move's text itself are the combat moves, most notably "Strike" and "Clash." So, I found myself a little at a loss about how to handle initiative loss or gain when preforming moves like "Face Danger" or "Secure an Advantage."
If I have initiative and preform a "Secure an Advantage" or "Face Danger" move but roll only a Weak Hit, do I automatically lose initiative no matter the other results of the roll? Or can I hold onto Initiative if it makes sense in the narrative.
A weak hit on "Secure an Advantage" says that the advantage created is fleeting... but you still have the advantage for at least a few moments, so wouldn't it make sense to keep hold of the initiative in that situation, so long as you act quickly enough to take advantage of it?
Were I to "Face Danger", and roll a weak hit, could I decide to "Endure Harm" or lose momentum as the cost of my weak hit, but keep initiative, or would I need to suffer both the cost and lose initiative?
I guess and easier way to ask this would be: Is gaining/holding initiative strictly tied to Strong Hits, while weak hits will always lose you initiate, regardless of what move was rolled and any other costs involved?
Can a weak hit on "Face Danger" ever gain you initiative in exchange for some other, greater cost (getting hurt, losing supplies, etc)?
On a related note: If initiative not not strictly tied to Strong/Weak Hits, then should I interpret the text of "End The Fight" strictly as it's written, so that it can only follow a Strong Hit, or should I interpret that as meaning it can only be carried out while you have initiative?
I really hope I made at least a little sense amidst all that rambling!
HI, Liam Moher. Thanks for trying out Ironsworn!
ReplyDeleteSimply put, yes -- initiative is tied to strong hits. If you score a strong hit on a move, you take or retain initiative. If you score a weak hit or miss, you lose initiative. See page 53 and then the examples on 54-55 for more on this.
Yes, End the Fight must follow a strong hit. Since any strong hit will give you initiative, having initiative goes hand-in-hand with making the move.
A weak hit on Secure an Advantage gives you the mild bonus (+1 momentum), which represents your short-lived advantage. As you envision what happens, imagine your character gaining some sort of advantage in the fight, but then facing a setback as your opponent takes back control. Note, however, that your advantage (the +1 momentum) lives on even after you lose initiative, so don't think of it as immediately giving up the advantage you gained. Especially when paired with an asset that gives you a momentum bonus on a hit, building up your momentum can be pretty powerful and can accumulate rapidly in a fight.
Very early drafts of the rules had options to take or lose initiative as an outcome in moves, but it turned out that taking initiative was always the obvious choice, and left things feeling pretty stale.
A few recommendations:
Suffer moves (such as Endure Harm or Endure Stress) give you initiative on a strong hit. This essentially gives you two tries at initiative in some situations. For example, you Clash and roll a weak hit. You decide this means you've been hit by your foe, and Endure Harm. If you roll a strong hit when you Endure Harm (relatively likely, especially at +3 or +4 health), you get back initiative as you come surging back into the fight.
Remember that the Turn the Tide move gives you a once-a-fight option to steal initiative. Pretty handy (though risky) in a crucial moment.
Remember that a typical foe is troublesome or dangerous. One strong hit inflicts 9 progress against a troublesome foe, which is pretty much time to End the Fight. Be mindful of this when you set up challenges. Extreme or Epic foes can be tough to beat without wearing down every aspect of your character, but that encourages you to pursue some narrative justification to reduce their rank (fight alongside allied NPC's etc.)
Overall, yes, it'll feel a bit like you're on the ropes for a decent portion of the fight, as your rolls will tend towards weak hits and misses. But, you've got much more in the way of "fail buffers" than your foes, and gaining back initiative for an unlikely string of hits will feel earned.
Shawn Tomkin Thanks so much for the reply. That really helps to clarify things a lot! I have no idea how I managed to miss that whole section on initiative on my read-through of the book. I feel rather foolish now that I realize this was all clearly spelled out in the book and I just failed to see it.
ReplyDeleteI'm certain that I mangled the rules pretty badly in that first fight, but now I know better for next time. Still had lots of fun though!
For some context, this was the first combat I had, and it was against an Elder Bear. I didn't feel like getting ripped to absolute shreds on my very first outing, so I decided it was an aging elder bear that was past its prime (I would later find out when trying to resupply by butchering the bear for some of its meat that it was actually an undead, aged, elder bear)... I'd also earlier convinced an NPC to come with to help hunt the beast. As a result dropped it to formidable rather than Extreme.
I had a "ferocious hound" as an asset, so I was inflicting pretty good harm whenever I used clash or Strike, but I found myself in a situation where the bear's progress bar was completely filled, but I was unable to eek out a strong hit in order to finish the fight.
Now that I have a firmer grip on the rules I think I should be able to generally avoid running into that sort of situation again in the future... Although with its progress completely filled maybe it would have made a lot more sense in fiction for the bear to realize it was bested, or that at least these pesky humans weren't worth the effort and it would do better to just skedaddle, rather than wait around for me to get that strong hit I needed.
One piece of advice I will give is to End the Fight when you have an opportunity. If you've got a strong hit and +6 or +7 on the progress track, it might make sense to take advantage of the initiative and see if you've done enough to wrap things up. Heck, even at only +4 on the progress track you've got even odds of a hit. Weak Hits and Misses tend to be more narratively interesting with End the Fight anyway.
ReplyDeleteAnd, any move you frame in the narrative as "decisive" that results in a strong hit can lead you right into End the Fight. Even a suffer move. Between that and Turn the Tide and your assets, you've got some tools to play with to keep things from feeling like a slog.
And, yeah, End the Fight represents a combat with both participants dedicated to seeing it through. I'll tend to use moves like Face Danger or Compel to resolve things outside of End the Fight (i.e. Compel a surrender, flee, intimidate that final wolf in the pack to run away, etc.), just to keep an element of uncertainty.
It's probably the number #1 question/complaint, so it's probably something I will continue to look at it, but I do think it works out in play -- especially once you've got a bit of experience with the game.
For sure. I definitely should have tried to end that fight sooner. I imagine that my next session is likely to go a whole lot smoother now that I'm starting to get a firmer grip on things.
ReplyDelete