Hi Shawn
Hi Shawn,
I am starting a solo play. I am using the default preview setting/assets, etc.. I found something strange as part of character creation that I wanted to run by you. I am coming from a D&D 5e background and perhaps I have missed something about Ironsworn and am incorrectly looking at this through that perspective in which case I look forward to learning the Ironsworn way of doing all this.
I am creating a brains over brawn character who has a high wits stat (+3) and medium heart and Iron (+2) and low shadow and edge (+1).
So far so good. When it came to adding assets I put myself in character and thought ok, as someone with wits what would I be attracted to? This is where I noticed that the ability stats don't seem to be balanced across assets. In the martial assets only archer uses wits but there are 3 martial assets that use Iron. Only long-arm uses edge and only cutthroat uses shadow. I guess the intent is to make Iron the primary stat for martial assets and that would be fine if the other stats were balanced by being the primary stats for other things like rituals but they aren't quite.
In the rituals, there are 4 assets that use heart, 3 that use wits, 2 that use shadow. None specifically use edge or iron. Again this all makes sense in a way as I can see how rituals are something based on the mental/spiritual side of a character.
However this leads to unbalanced characters. If I create a character (lets say a rogue archetype) with edge as my primary stat (+3), then shadow and wits (+2) and heart and iron (+1) then I have considerably weeker statistical benefits from assets and weaker choice of assets that synergize with my stats than a character (maybe a Paladin type) who has heart as primary (+3) and then Iron and wits (+2) and shadow and edge (+1).
Edge is almost a dump stat from an asset point of view with shadow boxed into 3 assets. Maybe the actual mechanics of play use edge and shadow more and balance out the difference in the assets but coming from 5e it's really noticeable to me at character creation time that certain builds seem weak and I am not even a min-max optimizer.
Is the imbalance in assets intended? If so then I think it needs to be explained in the character creation section, unless it already is and I missed it :-)
Hope this is useful feedback. I am loving Ironsworn so far and looking forward to actually playing now that I have my character created.
Mark.
I am starting a solo play. I am using the default preview setting/assets, etc.. I found something strange as part of character creation that I wanted to run by you. I am coming from a D&D 5e background and perhaps I have missed something about Ironsworn and am incorrectly looking at this through that perspective in which case I look forward to learning the Ironsworn way of doing all this.
I am creating a brains over brawn character who has a high wits stat (+3) and medium heart and Iron (+2) and low shadow and edge (+1).
So far so good. When it came to adding assets I put myself in character and thought ok, as someone with wits what would I be attracted to? This is where I noticed that the ability stats don't seem to be balanced across assets. In the martial assets only archer uses wits but there are 3 martial assets that use Iron. Only long-arm uses edge and only cutthroat uses shadow. I guess the intent is to make Iron the primary stat for martial assets and that would be fine if the other stats were balanced by being the primary stats for other things like rituals but they aren't quite.
In the rituals, there are 4 assets that use heart, 3 that use wits, 2 that use shadow. None specifically use edge or iron. Again this all makes sense in a way as I can see how rituals are something based on the mental/spiritual side of a character.
However this leads to unbalanced characters. If I create a character (lets say a rogue archetype) with edge as my primary stat (+3), then shadow and wits (+2) and heart and iron (+1) then I have considerably weeker statistical benefits from assets and weaker choice of assets that synergize with my stats than a character (maybe a Paladin type) who has heart as primary (+3) and then Iron and wits (+2) and shadow and edge (+1).
Edge is almost a dump stat from an asset point of view with shadow boxed into 3 assets. Maybe the actual mechanics of play use edge and shadow more and balance out the difference in the assets but coming from 5e it's really noticeable to me at character creation time that certain builds seem weak and I am not even a min-max optimizer.
Is the imbalance in assets intended? If so then I think it needs to be explained in the character creation section, unless it already is and I missed it :-)
Hope this is useful feedback. I am loving Ironsworn so far and looking forward to actually playing now that I have my character created.
Mark.
.
ReplyDeleteHi, Mark Brady. The short and pretty lame answer is that Ironsworn isn't particularly concerned with balance, but here's your very long and only slightly less lame answer.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, the sweet spot for Ironsworn is 1-2 players, with or without a GM. With that size of group, niche protection is not really an issue. I think (hope) that the combination of vows, stats, assets, and roleplay will make characters pretty robust without undue mechanical complexity.
Secondly, Ironsworn is fairly focused on player-driven narrative (either through GM-less play or collaborative play with a GM). This means the players have a fair bit of control over what types of challenges they face, and how they deal with them.
The awful truth on stats is that heart and wits are probably the most two mechanically robust stats (in terms of moves), with iron in the middle and shadow and edge comparatively weaker. However, you can offset this inherent imbalance with appropriate assets and by engaging in adventures more appropriate to your character. If I were to build a high edge/shadow character (a rogue-ish type), I would probably focus more on intrigue scenarios and less on hoofing about in the wilds and battling raiders.
Or, maybe not! There's inherent drama in fish-out-of-water scenarios. Maybe I tend to travel with caravans to avoid making journey moves. Maybe I get a horse companion to help offset my low wits when traveling. Maybe I tend to leverage shadow when interacting with others.
Lastly, the full spread of assets isn't available yet. and the supporter edition of Ironsworn will include an additional set. As I develop those, I'll be looking to fill some gaps, particularly when it comes to the "lesser" stats. PbtA games tend to have character playbook moves which are essentially "use this stat instead of this stat when doing this thing". But,there's only a couple of instances of that in Ironsworn thus far. This is purposeful. I didn't want to undermine the stats by building ways for character's to just use their favored stat in most circumstances. That said, you will see a bit more of this, such as a con-artist type asset which leverages shadow for some heart-focused moves.
Overall, you do raise some good points and I do hope to even things out a bit more where appropriate!
Would love to hear more about your character, and what assets you were considering. Paths can be pretty robust for a high wits character.
Also, anyone else who wants to chime in with perceived gaps in assets or archetypes, or thoughts on this issue in general, I'd love to hear about it.
Shawn Tomkin Hey Shawn, great answer and thanks for the quick reply! When I read your point about the 1-2 player sweet spot for Ironsworn a lot clicked into place for me. In D&D people are always trying to make their character relevant to the party so that they get to do something. One of the frustrating things about large party (of player characters) RPGs is that in many cases your character's unique abilities are mostly duplicated across the party so you end up struggling to do your thing. As you pointed out, with a 1-2 player game that's heavily narrative driven by the players this doesn't happen and everyone gets a chance (or a much better chance) for their character to do their thing and balance is irrelevant then.
ReplyDeleteThis is fantastic as this is one of the things that attracts me to the game. In D&D, the need to balance things means that classes and therefor characters fall into neat little slots. Great if the character you want to play fits into one of those but tough luck if not. In Ironsworn I feel I can make whoever I want. I was a bit preoccupied with balance because trying to make who I want in D&D often leads to some weird multiclass combination that in a large group is the worst mix of a few classes and so doesn't really get to do much well.
The character I am creating is a smart but not very edgy or terriblely agile or strong person from a small village, Morien of Hazelford. He is (wants to become) a Mystic (his path). In Hazelford there was only his uncle to teach him. His uncle was a knowledgeable person who knew a little but not much deeply about the mystic world. With the basics in hand the time has come for Morien to travel to the reasonably larger and more central market village of Darkwater where he hopes to a find a true mystic that will accept him as an apprentice (his vow).
While thinking about Morien and the Ironlands I had pictured him as a Skirmisher (martial asset) with a spear however as I reviewed the assets and saw that Archer (martial asset) was driven off wits the idea of having him use a bow has been growing on me. It just makes sense. He has spent his time focused on the spiritual and mystical. He is not a physical powerhouse so a bow is a perfect choice. I could still have chosen to go with Skirmisher, especially after your comments but I like the archer idea. The change in direction here feels like Morien is becoming real and I will go with what he chooses rather than what I would in the Ironlands. This is very fun for me as I am playing solo and even at character creation time the story is moving in new and interesting ways.
In terms of rituals I am going with Augur. Again this was initially driven by the lack of a need for any particular stat but then I realised that storywise it's perfect. Morien learned one small thing from his learned but not initiated uncle. The first part of Augur is something I can imagine that his uncle may have learned in his travels while young and it feels like a very soft ritual where there is minimal mucking around with dark forces so it's the sort of thing that's more likely to be known amongst a few non mystics.
Now that you've freed me from being preoccupied by balance I feel very free to let the story flow!
I swear a sacred vow on this Iron arrowhead that I will post on my play report and feedback in a few days ;-)
Mark.
As mentioned in another thread, our co-op is in the zero to hero mold. So we were looking for more mundane assets. Maybe not in the default design idea for characters, but if you wanted to support that sort of game, some more mundane choices, maybe that grows into a further advanced path.
ReplyDeleteAwesome, Mark Brady. Thanks for the response.
ReplyDeleteI was mucking about with edits to Mystic and Augur this morning. Unfortunately, I was failing on my +wits roll. I want augur to not just be another "gather information" stand-in, since there's already a couple of other rituals which are heavily oriented towards fact-finding, but traditionally augury is divination-focused. I am leaning towards making it a self-contained move with a twist, instead of reinforcing a core move, but haven't quite landed on anything yet.
Mystic is less contentious for me, but I do need to re-phrase that first ability, or put something in its place.
Hey Mark Brady. Let me know what you think of this replacement default ability for Augur.
ReplyDelete---------------
When you summon a murder of crows and ask a single question, roll +wits. On a strong hit, envision the helpful response (Ask the Oracle if unsure) and take +2 momentum. On a weak hit, the crows ignore your question and offer a clue to an unrelated problem or opportunity in this area. Envision what they tell you (Ask the Oracle if unsure), and take +1 momentum if you act on this information.
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A bit wordy, but I like the idea of the crows being fickle. Reading the signs may lead you into an unrelated story path.
Allan Prewett ... if I wanted to depict less experienced characters in order to support more growth, I would start with one asset instead of 3.There are several relatively mundane martial and path assets.
ReplyDeleteKeep in mind that not having an asset doesn't limit your character. You can be scout or guide without the wayfinder asset. You can wield a bow without the archer asset. The assets just give you additional options and mechanical bonuses.
Ironsworn actually used to default to 1 asset at character creation.
Hey Shawn Tomkin. Love the proposed change to Augur. I strongly agree that something like divination should have some element of chance to succeed. Wits seems like the best stat for this so that is good with me and I love the weak hit result. Can really see this driving the story along.
ReplyDeleteI am just wondering about the +2 to momentum on a strong hit for the default ability. As the 3rd ability gives another +1 to momentum this is a potential +3. Maybe this is fine (after all useful information really pushes a quest to complete a vow on) however I just wanted to name it. I think it might be ok because I suppose when a character had the 3rd ability they are more experienced and can make more use of the information.
All in all I like the wording and am going to play with this to try it out.
Regarding the Mystic I need to play to actually get a better sense of it. Finally have time today so will get back with some feedback when I can. Also looking forward to any update on it if you have proposed changes in the meantime.
Mark Brady .... getting bunches of momentum in a single go within a character's niche is entirely intentional. It helps offset the inherent challenge of getting strong hits, and -- in the fiction -- helps support a character's area of focus. I am sure a dedicated min-maxer could figure out a way to get +6 momentum through some crazy combo :)
ReplyDeleteIt's all balanced out by the fact that making moves is never without risk, and no matter your advantage those 10's on the challenge dice aren't far away. The more you focus your character, the less capabilities you have in other areas.
As for the assets, I've got an update this morning! This includes the re-worked augur (close to what I posted yesterday). The Mystic is now Ritualist, because the changes all focused on performing rituals. I'd suggest switching over to that if you had Mystic already. It's pretty close. Let me know what you think of both.
Oops. Forgot the link. Here you go.
ReplyDeletedrive.google.com - Ironsworn-Preview-Assets.pdf
Shawn Tomkin Thanks, got it and using the updated assets now. One small thing, the Ritualist path 3rd ability still uses the term elder mystic. I don't think it's particularly confusing or a problem but if Mystic is now Ritualist perhaps you want to use the same term there.
ReplyDeleteI am liking the changes so far 👍
Thanks, Mark Brady. Mystic is a broader term for magic-using folks, while a ritualist would be focused specifically on learning and improving the fundamentals of performing rituals. In the fiction, Ritualist isn't really a "job label", while mystic would be, if you catch my meaning.
ReplyDeleteI have plans to add a Mystic path which is more focused on general mystical sense and perhaps casting very simple "fire and forget" magic. Even if you're not trained in rituals, you might be mystically-attuned.
That's my story for the moment, anyway. We'll see how it susses out.
Shawn Tomkin Cool, like the plan!
ReplyDelete