How have people been dealing with nested vows (swearing a vow to make progress on an existing vow)?
How have people been dealing with nested vows (swearing a vow to make progress on an existing vow)?
I have a character in a situation where a dangerous vow would be progressed by forging a bond, but they will probably have to swear a formidable vow to get that bond.
Mechanically it feels untidy to have the nested quest be bigger than the outside one, even though the fiction holds up, and I am going to go with it regardless. I am just curious.
I have a character in a situation where a dangerous vow would be progressed by forging a bond, but they will probably have to swear a formidable vow to get that bond.
Mechanically it feels untidy to have the nested quest be bigger than the outside one, even though the fiction holds up, and I am going to go with it regardless. I am just curious.
I am interested to hear what Shawn has to say. IMHO it might seem mechanically untidy, but it represents a snowball effect that is likely thematically appropriate.
ReplyDeleteGenerally, you'd have a secondary quest (page 217) of lower rank than your main vow, but that's certainly not a mandate. I should probably even loosen up the language on this in the book. Go with the fiction. If it feels like a it's a big deal, make it so.
ReplyDeleteYou've also got authorial control over this, and it can be driven by "this seems like a cool/fun/dramatic thing to do, so I'm going to focus on it for a while."
The outermost quest is only dangerous, while the subquest will need a trip to another region of the Iron Lands, followed by a big mess of social challenges to impress important people and such, so it is definitely more than merely troublesome. ;)
ReplyDeleteIf it goes off well, then the character's mentor will be impressed and I will mark progress. As I say, I am happy that it is a formidable vow (to which a dangerous journey to the Flooded Land will contribute some initial progress), I was just wondering how other people have done this sort of thing, if it has come up at all for them.
The alternative would be to have a couple of dangerous vows that lead to the same result, but it feels like this is one thing that should be kept together.
Sounds like a pretty reasonable reaction to the fiction, Martin Bentley. Fingers crossed for your journey. Been loving your play reports and looking forward to more!
ReplyDeleteHow to handle nested/related quests was a pretty common question throughout development, so you're not alone. I gave it some focus in Chapter 7, but mostly it comes down to doing what seems like a good fit for the fiction and is a strong narrative hook that makes you want to play to see what happens. I haven't personally ended up with a secondary quest higher than my main quest, but I probably lean a bit too hard into the mechanical elegance of having it one rank lower or whatever.
As Jacob Ross said, having a related vow send you off on a more complex quest is a cool way of showing things snowballing.
I’m finding myself in a situation with vows as well. Basically my character has vowed to slay Freidlig, the great wyrm atop the Veils. He is doing this because a prophecy whispered by the menhirs (stone monoliths said to possess the spirits of the Firstborn) says the one destined to unite the Hinterlands shall be known by performing a deed of legendary heroism. He wants to unite the separate villages of the Hinterlands to drive off the Red Wolf clan who’s been raiding and colonizing the Hinterlands by force. Thus he vows to kill a wyrm AND unite the Hinterlands by doing so - both pretty hefty feats. Should this be one vow or two? I couldn’t wrap my head how to make it work mechanically, but I’m having fun with it.
ReplyDeleteSounds like your vow to kill the wyrm is a milestone on your path to unite the Hinterlands, Derek Cutsinger. How did you set the rank for those two vows?
ReplyDeleteActually, it sounds like there might even be one more vow above both: "Rid the Hinterlands of the Red Wolf Clan." That's getting into Russian nesting doll territory, though. :)
Keep in mind that not everything has to be a vow. If you didn't Swear a Vow to kill the worm, it's just a narrative stepping stone on the path to unite the Hinterlands. This removes the need to pace that particular adventure through milestones. Grab your sword, go kill the wyrm. Mark a milestone. No problem. But, it certainly sounds like an epic challenge deserving of a vow, and making it a vow gives you that incremental experience reward.
Shawn Tomkin My character indeed did vow in front of the whole village of Hymn to to kill the Wyrm. He vowed to himself about uniting the Hinterlands but did not reveal to anyone - yet. Since there’s only one dragon in my incarnation of the world it’s an epic feat. Driving off the invaders would be dang near impossible too, I’m imagining, since I’m treating the Hinterlands villages as having old but not forgotten grievances with each other. This is kinda how things fell into place with a few Oracle rolls and I really liked the story it was setting up.
ReplyDeleteSounds like you have your work cut out for you, Derek Cutsinger.
ReplyDeleteWith two (I assume) epic quests, I would probably treat one as secondary but also intersecting. If you're doing things that also serve your goal of establishing alliances and proving yourself, feel free to also mark a milestone on your parent quest. This way, you don't find yourself having slain an epic monster with only one piddly tick marked on your "Unite the Hinterlands" vow. Let some milestones give you progress on both quests.
It'd also be reasonable to downgrade your wyrm quest to extreme or even formidable. Epic should be the quest of your lifetime, while extreme is still a huge undertaking. In the fiction, it sounds like uniting the clans is your ultimate goal.
Shawn Tomkin I agree. I’ll write up a report or two to share how things end up. ( My character is already off course with how things are currently going haha).
ReplyDeleteChapter 7 makes Vows dynamics much clearer, but life and good games are full of surprises :) When you initially rank a Vow you are typically estimating something you (and your character) don't know. I wonder if one should sometimes take the liberty of increasing a vow's rank, if he finds out that it is very different from what he initially thought. But these are of course exceptional cases and maybe Martin's approach of a nested vow with a higher rank is the best way to deal with these exceptions....
ReplyDeleteMy character Amara finds herself in a similar situation where her initial vow, which seemed something mundane to be resolved in a few days, was immediately made much more difficult (and almost irrelevant) by huge unexpected events. I guess the solo player is more exposed to these shifts, since there isn't a framework that was designed with other people and a more or less explicit commitment to stick with it. In my opinion, for a solo game it's a great plus that things turn out to be totally different than expected! Going with the story always is the most rewarding approach.
One way to do it mechanically is to simply try to complete the vow before you've got enough progress... one of the options is that the task is bigger than you thought and you recommit to the Vow at 1 rank higher on a miss. Or on a weak hit you realise the truth, mark XP but swear a new vow to put things right
ReplyDeleteJeremy Epp Great observation, thank you! I had totally missed this option!
ReplyDelete