Been having a hard time with figuring initiative and turn order when there are more than one PC OR opponent.
Been having a hard time with figuring initiative and turn order when there are more than one PC OR opponent. One-on-One encounters are straightforward enough. But I'm less clear on handling initiative when there are more than one PC AND/OR opponent. This is not specifically explained in the rule, and the only hint I found to clarify this is under Combat--> Aid an Ally. It appears that one PC could have the initiative, but another PC could not. So I'm understanding you go around the table to allow each PC to act, and then whomever lost the initiative must react to the fiction. Been curious as to what's the official way to handle this, or how anyone's been playing this.
HI, Etienne Lefebvre. Thanks for the question. Sorry this has been confusing for you. It's probably worthy of some expanded explanation in the book (I think I've got it in my to-do outline, but I'll make sure).
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, the way to think of initiative in Ironsworn is "Who is in control?" rather than "Who's turn is it?". When you have initiative, you are making proactive moves such as Strike or Secure an Advantage. When your foe has initiative, you need to react with moves like Clash or Face Danger. In terms of the fiction, when you have initiative you are in control. When your foe has initiative, they have the tempo of the fight and you are forced to react.
If you are GM'ing multiple players (or are playing co-op GM-less), you shift the spotlight around in a way that fits the current situation and narrative, while also ensuring that you don't have anyone twiddling their thumbs for too long. When I visualize the scene, I always think of it in cinematic terms. What is the camera focusing on right now?
If you have any PbtA experience the approach is similar. I know the lack of move order tends to cause some consternation in Dungeon World, and initiative adds a bit of structure but isn't meant to mimic traditional Dnd initiative or some-such.
Let's play out an example:
We're playing with a GM. Our two PC's, Ash and Tayla, are helping to defend a village against a raider attack. They come across 3 raiders in the longhouse.
(Normally I'd probably handle these 3 raiders as a pack, but for the sake of adding some complexity let's say they each get a progress track).
Ash and Tayla are at the longhouse entrance. Both PC's roll 'Enter the Fray', though they have a bit of a discussion over their approach. The raiders aren't aware of them yet, and Ash wants to use this to their advantage and get a shot or two off with his bow. He'll roll +shadow. Tayla, meanwhile, is eager to wade into the fight and rolls with +heart, caution be damned.
Ash rolls a strong hit, but Tayla misses.
The GM thinks for a sec about how to manage the initial focus of the fight, and says "Tayla you are charging into battle but these raiders are no greenhorns. They react quickly, reading their weapons, and one of them levels a spear at you."
This narration reflects that Tayla does not have control of the situation. She'll have to react to the raider and try to gain back initiative.
But, the GM leaves that as a bit of a cliffhanger. and shifts the focus back to the other PC, who has initiative. This also gives that PC an opportunity to intercede in the trouble Tayla is about to face.
"Meanwhile, Ash," the GM says, "you have a moment before Tayla is in the thick of it. What do you do?"
"Quick as I can, I nock an arrow, pull back, and send it flying towards the guy with the spear."
"That's a Strike," the GM says. "Roll for it."
Ash rolls +edge for the Strike, and scores a weak hit. Ash can mark progress against the raider, but has lost initiative as well.
The GM shifts the focus back to to the other PC. "Tayla, Ash was just a bit slow with that arrow shot. We'll inflict harm for it in a second. First, though, the raider thrusts the spear at you. What do you do?"
(Notice I am rewinding time here just a bit. The result of Ash's move, the arrow shot, hasn't occurred in the fiction yet. The GM uses this as a technique to resolve the weak hit and give the opportunity for the raider to act before getting hit with an arrow.)
"I'm going to try to evade the attack and get inside his guard."
"Are you attacking yourself?"
"Not yet."
"Sounds like Face Danger then. Roll for it."
Tayla rolls Face Danger, and gets a strong hit.
"How does that look?" the GM asks.
"He thrusts with his spear," Tayla says, " but I knock it aside with my shield. I'm inside his guard, bringing back my sword for a swing..."
ReplyDelete"And at that moment," the GM says, "thwack! An arrow slices right past you and into the guy's shoulder. He reels."
The GM shifts her attention back to Ash momentarily. "You don't really have a clear shot now that Tayla is mixing it up with these guys. What do you do?"
"I'll drop the bow, draw my axe, and join the fight."
"Okay," the GM says. Ash doesn't have initiative, so the fiction needs to represent him not in control of the situation. "As you move forward, the guy on the left suddenly charges at you."
Then, the GM turns back to Tayla. "You're inside his guard. He's reeling from that arrow shot. What do you do?"
Tayla pantomimes a sword swing. "Right across his neck," she says.
"Roll Strike."
Tayla makes the roll. Another strong hit. They mark the harm as progress against the raider. He's at 10 progress.
"End the Fight" Tayla says.
They roll for it. A strong hit. The raider is out of this battle.
"Meanwhile", the GM says. "You've got a raider bearing down on you. He's holding his shield out like a battering ram. What do you do?"
(and so on)
I hope that is helpful.
But... but... what happens!?
ReplyDeleteI have said it before, and I'll say it again, Ironsworn really tells an immersive story. Even with the mechanics included.
It's interesting that we don't care about our enemy's initiative, if that makes sense, it's all about if the PC has or doesn't have it....
John Risus .. Yeah, I kinda' want to roll dice now and see how the scene plays out.
ReplyDeleteThanks it clarifies. Somehow :) I had understood that it's more about control than actual initiative. I meant Turn Order more in the sense of "narrative control sequence order", like how it flows between players and GM. I have a feeling it might be slightly different than usual PbtA games. Maybe because there's no "GM Moves" to throw at the players for them to react, it's always about the players. Maybe because of the Clash move that allows the player to "act in spite danger" and inflict damage
ReplyDeleteShawn Tomkin How can you not break out the dice!? My solo play just exploded and it's now going on 3:30 AM and I am so excited I doubt I can sleep, but I know I have to... I so would rather shake my phone dice roller app and see where this tale unfolds!
ReplyDeleteWe play another game called Blade of the Iron Throne, it is a son of The Riddle of Steel. It uses a Limelight action system. No initiative, but move around the table and like a movie, do a chunk of action with one player, until something interesting happens. Then shift back in time to the same starting point and do the next players limelight. Each limelight can be off a different length per player, but end at the same point in time, when everyone has had a go, and then start again. Its hard to go back to the boardgame feel initiative systems of most rpg's after this system. Have not spelt out all the details but you get the pucture.
ReplyDeleteShould add, its all player facing, no npc enemy limelights. They can still do things, but in the context of a players turn
ReplyDeleteAllan Prewett Blade of the Iron Throne? Hmmm, I downloaded and read The Riddle oof Steel a long time ago, maybe when it was beta? All I remember was that it was a rather lethal as I recall... I might have to re-investigate this.
ReplyDeleteBlade is great once you crack the shell. Its S&S. It very sadly followed the original in layout. Great for solo or one to one in the S&S tradition. Breaks a number of gaming convention's. Great combat system. I did a cheat sheet for combat, because as mentioned, its a litte poorly laid out. It is lethal and quick but the heroes are top of the peaking order.
ReplyDeleteironthronepub.com - Iron Throne Publishing :: Topic: Close-Quarters Penalties (1/1)
Allan Prewett Looks interesting. Care to share the flowchart?
ReplyDeleteIf you go to the link above on the previous email, second entry has it attached. Is that what you mean by flowchart, its more a walkthrough.
ReplyDelete