Let's take a look at the proposed new "End the Fight" move for Ironsworn....
Let's take a look at the proposed new "End the Fight" move for Ironsworn....
End the Fight is now definitive. One way or another, this fight is over. This gives you (the player) a bit more agency in saying "I'm ready to move onto other things", and makes the move less anti-climactic than in previous versions. The move now also let's you springboard off either a strong or weak hit on the preceding move, which should resolve the issue of getting locked out of initiative and unable to End the Fight.
This also puts the move more in-line with other progress moves (there are some changes there I will preview shortly).
This change supplants the current function of the "Last Stand" move. I would like to retain the concept of giving players an option to steal initiative, but it'll require a re-think.
Your input is welcome!
So, just to clarify, would this also change the requirement of needing a strong hit prior to ending the fight to simply requiring a hit?
ReplyDeleteI see as well, of course, that a weak hit now still ends the fight now, but I wanted to be sure that the above was also an intended change.
Whitlock Shark ... that's correct. You can make this move following a strong or weak hit.
ReplyDeleteI like it, both Weak Hit and Miss I think are better. The fights ends no matter what the dice say. How it ends is up to the dice and my imagination!
ReplyDeleteThere's a fight coming soon in my coop play (once the PCs meet up, our planned narrative has a a vow-related battle fairly quickly), we'll use this version and provide feedback.
ReplyDeleteI like that the fight will definitely end, no matter what. Though I think the weak hit could use more guidance, or maybe more mechanical choices. New complications and dangers don't mesh well with a move that's supposed to be the climax of the fight.
ReplyDeleteHey Mike Leavitt, note this, esp if your Ironsworn actually has a full on fight in her prologue.
ReplyDeleteNice idea, Peter J. What about something like the following choices for a weak hit?
ReplyDeleteIt was worse than you thought: Mark a condition
Your victory is only temporary: A new danger or foe appears
Others won’t forget: You are marked for vengeance
It’ll cost you: Something of value is lost or broken
A bond is frayed: Test your Bond
Edit: Hmmm .. those choices creates some awkward overlap with the miss results on the Battle move. Requires more thought, but I think there's something here.
Interesting! The change vastly increases your odds of ending the fight after a few solid blows.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Peter J that it may be challenging to produce a new challenge or danger during the climax of the fight, but I think that it's definitely manageable (especially in fights with a number of forest or a dangerous environment)
Definitely want to test this out at the table and see how it changes the flow of combat. On paper I think it's a net positive though
I like it. I playtested a couple combats without it. Getting locked out of initative and being unable to end the fight despite having more than filled up the progress track was a bit frustrating. I did like Last Stand as a high-risk, high-reward way of solving that, though...
ReplyDeletejoseph deckert I don't think this invalidates Last Stand though, from a fiction perspective there's going to be times when making Last Stand is the right move.
ReplyDeleteEven from a mechanical perspective Last Stand maintains a powerful position in gaining initiative back with a bonus to help you develop the progress needed to End the Fight.
Shawn Tomkin I assume you still have to have initiative to End the Fight? I don't see it in the current draft but I think that allowing weak hits to End the Fight is probably a substantial enough nerf to the move without also dropping the initiative requirement. Otherwise I feel like that would probably undermine Last Stand a little as joseph deckert seems to feel.
Justin Gordon ... It is currently not dependent on initiative, which I agree is a pretty big nerf. Whether that is a feature or bug is TBD. Need to roll a bunch of dice this coming weekend.
ReplyDeleteThere are two dials I can fiddle with. Right now I've turned them both to the player's favor. One of them may end up toggling back, especially if I feel like the power of momentum is not getting it's due. Narratively, it's a bit of a bummer for me to let End the Fight follow a weak hit. I picture it much more as a strong hit that creates that decisive moment.
Either way, Last Stand will stick around, though I am considering renaming it Turn the Tide. The miss outcome will change to avoid overlap with End the Fight.
The good news is that I think making End the Fight a final move, rather then letting things drag on, works really well.
If folks have time to do some mock combats, any input is much appreciated.
To expand on my thoughts just a bit. One of the things I don't want players doing is to always wait for +10 on the progress track in a fight. If I make End the Fight dependent on a strong hit, for example, then the player is thinking "well, that's a strong hit and I've got this guy at +6. That's risky, but I'm not sure when that strong hit will come around again. Let's try to End the Fight." Those little nuggets of risk/reward are fun.
ReplyDeleteSo, there's some subtle interactions that make rule tweaks like pulling a thread. I need to be careful, but I'm excited about where the changes to combat resolution are headed.
Thanks for letting me think out loud. :)
I have a scene brewing in my head to really kick the tires of combat. If I can avoid another 15 hours of work today I'll blast through some fights tonight and be able to give a more confident assessment
ReplyDeleteJustin Gordon Asks the Oracle if he will work late. And the Oracle says.... (65).
ReplyDeleteToimu now he must Pay the Price, lol
ReplyDelete