So we did some more coop last night.
So we did some more coop last night.
Question; is it possible to add modifiers to rolls?
Sometimes it felt like a task could have been a bit easier. With the system as is, what would you consider the default difficulty on a standard roll to be?
Average, easy, difficult...
Advancing does not give you the option to increase stats and not all assets fire all the time, so it feels like a standard roll is a difficult level.
Another thing that came up and its not a biggie, as it would be easy once more skilled at the system, but harm from natural causes, like falling. We were trying to escape pirates with Face Danger - trickery, after deciding the pirates boat was faster, around a small island. We Missed. We decided on two possible outcomes - captured or run aground on a spur of rock just off the island. Oracle said rock. So we were looking for guidelines on harm from such a crash.
We had a lot more going on, sorry I dont have time to write it up.
Question; is it possible to add modifiers to rolls?
Sometimes it felt like a task could have been a bit easier. With the system as is, what would you consider the default difficulty on a standard roll to be?
Average, easy, difficult...
Advancing does not give you the option to increase stats and not all assets fire all the time, so it feels like a standard roll is a difficult level.
Another thing that came up and its not a biggie, as it would be easy once more skilled at the system, but harm from natural causes, like falling. We were trying to escape pirates with Face Danger - trickery, after deciding the pirates boat was faster, around a small island. We Missed. We decided on two possible outcomes - captured or run aground on a spur of rock just off the island. Oracle said rock. So we were looking for guidelines on harm from such a crash.
We had a lot more going on, sorry I dont have time to write it up.
Forgot to mention that I am using books by Michael Scott Rohan - The Winter of the Worlds. If anyone is familiar with them for inspiration.
ReplyDeleteHi Allan Prewett, Happy Holidays! I am the voice of the rambling noob around here. Never having played any of the games that Ironsworn takes inspiration from, and never solo played anything until now. So, what I say could be way off ;), other than "Happy Holidays" El Oh El.
ReplyDeleteMechanically I don't know what adding modifiers to rolls would do to the system. I don't think, personally, there would be a lot of room for much more additions would there? I mean it's only a ten point spread and mathematically you're averaging 2 pts for the character Stats and 3.5 pts from a d6, so 5-6 average result without Assets vs a Challenge Die that rolls a 5.5 average? So 50/50? Assets, as I recall, usually give a 1 pt bonus or 10% vs challenge die. I guess what I am asking is how do you envision modifiers being incorporated? To stats, and if so where would they cut off (what's the max stat you can have)? Wider arching Assets so they 'fire off' more?
I'm not trying to be argumentative by the way. I like fiddling with rules myself, so interested in what your thoughts are.
As for the Harm of running aground, wouldn't it just be whatever the Harm was established by the Challenge Rank of the Pirates? I kind of thought of it as a scene challenge rating. Endure Harm does say "... equal to your foe's harm or to the nature of the damage." so when I looked at Harm (pg 18) it mentions falling damage for two of the entries; Troublesome and Extreme. I guess it would be based on the narrative? Say, if they were just flung overboard Harm 1, but if they careened into rocks and were vaulted out into sharp jagged rocks with strong waves, maybe Harm 3?
I realize I replied to your questions with a bunch of questions, but I am not sure myself. Just thinking it over and trying to come up with how I would handle it myself. Sorry if it's not all that helpful.
Hi, Allan Prewett. Thanks for the comments.
ReplyDeleteThere's a bit to unpack here. Forgive the forthcoming ramble.
First of all, the math in Ironsworn is skewed towards a weak hit. In your example (+2 stat), you have a 67% chance of a hit overall (44% weak hit and 23% strong hit)The balance doesn't tip toward a strong hit until about +4. My sense of reading (some) play reports is that this can feel a bit frustrating, but I also like seeing how excited folks get with those rare strong hits, and the "sweet spot" in terms of potential drama is in the weak hit. Also, the framework of Ironsworn is driving players towards building and using momentum as a way to gain adds and to shift the result of a move. And, lastly, assets can create interesting niches for your character where you are naturally more competent.
That said, I am considering adding an alternate stat array (in the options chapter) for players who want to shift the tone to be a bit more heroic. This would give you an array of 4, 3, 3, 2, 2. If you want to try that out, do so! It won't break anything.
Also, just generally, I am hoping I get feedback from folks on how things "feel" in play. Futzing with the stat arrays and the math can have a domino effect on everything else. If I continuously hear that it is frustrating vs fun, then I need to consider a tweak.
I have had previous feedback that folks want to see stat gains for level-up, and it's something I've considered, but I haven't pulled the trigger. I would rather see more dramatic uses of stat adjustment mechanics, such as the Shadow-Kin asset which lets you shift points to shadow when you are corrupted.
Lastly, for harm, I'd say take a look at page 18. Let me know if the description of harm ranks is helpful. By your description, I'd just call it 1 harm, but if there's a raging storm and you're being battered against the rocks or nearly drowning, then make it more. When in doubt, just call it -2 (see 'Suffer -X" page 51-52) and be done with it. However, also consider that not every failure leads to harm or some other mechanical penalty. Is running aground and enough of a negative outcome by itself?
Does your boat get ruined or lost? Is there some new danger on this island? You are free (and encouraged!) to use narrative penalties as "failure soaks" if it creates new drama and challenges for your character.
I'll have to look at the Winter of the Worlds series. Sounds cool.
Shawn Tomkin FWIW, within the scope of my limited play, I think the Stats w/no progression is just the right amount of 'gritty' for what I like personally. It fits the original setting and the setting I am running. But, I can definitely see others wanting to be a bit more heroic.
ReplyDeleteMaybe that is something you envision with Asset Packs? A barbarian who can pull a point of Heart to Iron for that Rage Asset?
John Risus ... yeah, I've dabbled with that a bit in current assets. Battle-Scarred let's you shift points from iron or edge to heart or wits. Shadow-Kin let's you shift from heart to shadow. The trade-in nets you a +1, basically, since you get to trade -1 for +2 across those stats. I like that mechanic and will probably introduce another asset or two which does something similar as a result of narrative events or focus. It's more interesting to me than taking +1 every X experience points.
ReplyDeleteShawn Tomkin I agree with everyone that stats shouldn't really change much during play. A +1 change is a fairly substantial shift in character power against the rules and would definitely take a lot of the grit away. I think that at least some of the frustration that comes from the Weak Hit may be from people who haven't done a lot of PbtA (where 7-9 is the norm) and are kind of expecting a pass/fail approach like a traditional RPG. It takes some mental rewiring to recognize the compromise offered in a 7-9, weak hit, or Success with Threat (SWRPG) as fundamentally a success.
ReplyDeleteI know with the way things are built currently, I absolutely do cheer out loud when I roll that crucial Strong Hit and I think that's kind of how it should feel.
Shawn Tomkin nothing much more to add as I feel like you and Justin Gordon covered my points on power-level and Weak Hits almost exactly.
ReplyDeleteWhat I might say (and sounds like you have this in mind) are some ‘Options/Extras’ either in the Core or as a later splat that points out ways in which one can hack the baseline assumptions. Maybe almost something like liner notes, to the extent you’re comfortable commenting on your creative process.
I enjoy seeing what alternate ideas designers have for their systems. Believe David Black did something similar with his Black Hack.
Justin Gordon "...I absolutely do cheer out loud when I roll that crucial Strong Hit and I think that's kind of how it should feel."
ReplyDeleteOr when you malevolently have a grin ear to ear knowing that over the past four to five sessions you have saved up 10 freaking Momentum to finally ensure a good ol' smack down on those trixy dice when you need to! Mwah ha ha!
John Risus I saw you hit +10 in your most recent post. Absolutely cannot wait to see that moment when challenge dice come up double 9s and you drop the +10 on them. It's going to be epic.
ReplyDeleteWith difficulty I was thinking of a +1 mod to allow for an easier task, maybe with a reduction of good results from a strong hit, but maybe to much rules bloat. Something could be added as an optional rule.
ReplyDeleteTo be honest, I have not dug in and read all the rules in detail, as we are in the learning stage with another rpg also.
Missed the falling reference thanks. We went with 3 harm for running aground - snap John...
I had not thought about using the Pirates as the Harm level, good idea. We just jumped into a game with minimal prep, as I am really keen to push my friends gaming skills, so we can play more of the PbtA games.
I suppose one option with the game lending to weak hits and the difficulty is easier is to not roll and just assume success. With my coop players improvistional skills (as mentioned in another post) being weakish, the short game was skewed to more misses and some head scratching to come up with problems. He did come away feeling it was a bit to chaotic. Maybe just spitballing there could be some mechanic like Mythic, with a slowly escalating chaos level, or Zach B's Surge count.
The genre shift stats is a good idea, but it works the other way also, we worked to generate the zero hero, the town average. So we were struggling to pick more mundane assets and stay away from the swordmasters!
I chose storyweaver, brawler and ward, Aaron has long-arm as the sailor skilled with oars, cant remember his others but all as mundane as possible.
Stat increases was just a query on design than a request.
I suppose a chart of harm examples would be helpful for the beginner, especially if they are jumping in without reading everthing!!!
Charts listing some spirit and supply damage could be good. It would help to get a handle on the power level of the default game.
Thanks for all the comments. I only have a tablet at home so editing is not so easy and my post might be a bit 'all over the place like a mad persons s#/%'
Just an observation but the Journey rules and random table for waypoints are skewed to land trips. A sea trip needs some other inspiration for waypoints. Probably not as common as land travel, so understand if its not covered in the future.
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