Wall of text alert! Let's talk the End the Fight move....
Wall of text alert! Let's talk the End the Fight move....
Justin Gordon brought this up in his play report, and Zack MacDonald mentioned it as well.
End the Fight is the progress move for a combat scene. It's a bit unique among the progress moves because it's got a specific trigger of requiring a strong hit on a preceding move to setup taking out your foe.
The problem is that you get can stuck in a string of weak hits, don't have initiative, and you aren't really empowered to end the scene even if you've got the progress track full and you're ready to move on to less stabby things.
One solution, of course, is to make sure you've got momentum in the bank to bump up that preceding move to a strong hit, but sometimes the momentum track is not working in your favor (especially, as noted, if you are stuck in a string of weak hits). The Last Stand move was actually designed as a bit of a relief valve for this problem, because it's a move that allows you to steal back initiative.
You know that final sword duel in Rob Roy? Rob Roy is seemingly beaten, but grabs his opponent's blade and turns things around in pretty dramatic fashion. That's Last Stand+Strike+End the Fight.
What I have seen, though, is Last Stand is appealing enough that people often use it earlier in the fight.
I've been thinking through some potential solutions, but the first step is sorting out whether it's really a problem. Something to keep in mind is that not every fight needs to be a bloody battle leading to the End the Fight move. Narratively, are you at a point where the remaining foes would probably tuck tail and run? Ask the Oracle to see if that happens. Do you want to try to compel them to surrender? Have at it. If your enemy is committed to this fight for whatever reason, that's when you'll need to make the move to finish it. Otherwise, use the progress track as a visual representation of the tipping of the scales into your favor (or of your inability to gain ground), and take the NPCs goals and behavior into account.
Perhaps that should be mechanically supported in a fight, with some cogs and gears for resolving NPC morale or some-such, but I opted to instead leave it to player (or GM) judgement and giving broad flexibility in resolving a fight scene. Let's say you are fighting a small pack of raiders, for example. You give the leader a separate project track, because you want to give him some narrative focus (he's a hated enemy) and because he's a much stronger warrior than his fellows. If you take him out, do you now have to chip away at the progress track of the underlings? Perhaps you just say they are likely to scatter and flee, and you Ask the Oracle if it happens. If the oracle says "no", fight's on! If the Oracle says "yes", they head for the hills, and the fight is over unless you want to go after them.
Lastly, I have to be a bit careful about changes, because it's more of an issue in solo play than when there are multiple players. With multiple people pinging a progress track, the Aid your Ally move, etc. there's more opportunities to End the Fight or get back in it.
I have a couple of thoughts on edits to the move, but first I thought I'd toss the larger issue out there. Input welcome!
Justin Gordon brought this up in his play report, and Zack MacDonald mentioned it as well.
End the Fight is the progress move for a combat scene. It's a bit unique among the progress moves because it's got a specific trigger of requiring a strong hit on a preceding move to setup taking out your foe.
The problem is that you get can stuck in a string of weak hits, don't have initiative, and you aren't really empowered to end the scene even if you've got the progress track full and you're ready to move on to less stabby things.
One solution, of course, is to make sure you've got momentum in the bank to bump up that preceding move to a strong hit, but sometimes the momentum track is not working in your favor (especially, as noted, if you are stuck in a string of weak hits). The Last Stand move was actually designed as a bit of a relief valve for this problem, because it's a move that allows you to steal back initiative.
You know that final sword duel in Rob Roy? Rob Roy is seemingly beaten, but grabs his opponent's blade and turns things around in pretty dramatic fashion. That's Last Stand+Strike+End the Fight.
What I have seen, though, is Last Stand is appealing enough that people often use it earlier in the fight.
I've been thinking through some potential solutions, but the first step is sorting out whether it's really a problem. Something to keep in mind is that not every fight needs to be a bloody battle leading to the End the Fight move. Narratively, are you at a point where the remaining foes would probably tuck tail and run? Ask the Oracle to see if that happens. Do you want to try to compel them to surrender? Have at it. If your enemy is committed to this fight for whatever reason, that's when you'll need to make the move to finish it. Otherwise, use the progress track as a visual representation of the tipping of the scales into your favor (or of your inability to gain ground), and take the NPCs goals and behavior into account.
Perhaps that should be mechanically supported in a fight, with some cogs and gears for resolving NPC morale or some-such, but I opted to instead leave it to player (or GM) judgement and giving broad flexibility in resolving a fight scene. Let's say you are fighting a small pack of raiders, for example. You give the leader a separate project track, because you want to give him some narrative focus (he's a hated enemy) and because he's a much stronger warrior than his fellows. If you take him out, do you now have to chip away at the progress track of the underlings? Perhaps you just say they are likely to scatter and flee, and you Ask the Oracle if it happens. If the oracle says "no", fight's on! If the Oracle says "yes", they head for the hills, and the fight is over unless you want to go after them.
Lastly, I have to be a bit careful about changes, because it's more of an issue in solo play than when there are multiple players. With multiple people pinging a progress track, the Aid your Ally move, etc. there's more opportunities to End the Fight or get back in it.
I have a couple of thoughts on edits to the move, but first I thought I'd toss the larger issue out there. Input welcome!
Interested in seeing the discussion on this. What are the tradeoffs for ending a fight 'early'? What about dragging it on?
ReplyDeleteNot actually having the opportunity to play as of yet I am reluctant to comment, but I will anyway... What about a "Live to Fight Another Day" move? When you have the upper hand, but can't seal the deal (progress track is full and you fail an End the Fight move), make this move. On a strong hit win, weak hit you win temporarily (they'll be back), Miss ... well they won and your journey progress is pushed back and you're on the run. Sure you can spice up those options, but just a thought. It would leave the current mechanic as is for ending the fight, but give an alternate ending that may not be directly tied to the progress? IDK, just brainstorming a thought.
ReplyDeleteCool ideas, John Risus. A bit of that is represented in the existing Battle move, which is the one-roll-and-done option for fights. I am trying to resist the siren call of a new move, but I do like the idea of a stronger representation of combat off-ramps from the progress track.
ReplyDeleteI'm continuing to mull it over.
*Sorry in advance for the wall of text*
ReplyDeleteI definitely agree that not every fight needs to be to the death, and leaving the rules broad there to allow for interpretation seems like the way to go.
I find myself waffling back and forth as to whether the issue is even an issue. I've definitely seen the situation where a string of weak hits leaves you in a weird narrative place, as you've clearly mechanically beaten the challenge but you can't just say "ok, I'm done with this now"
On the other hand, the string of weak hits also produces more opportunities for chaos and disruption of the game state through hard choices and complications arising from such moves, like most PbtA (adjacent) games, the 7-9 is where the meat of gameplay is at.
If I had to point at one thing that was leaving me a little high and dry it's that the Face Danger weak hit saps 1 momentum, taking away the resource most likely to get back into the fight.
I think, reading the moves again, that the right way to handle "Face Danger" situations (dodging, evading, using a shield) would be to instead use the situation to Secure an Advantage. After all, even when you're on your heels and being driven back you're still looking for the right moment to surge back into battle.
Mechanically this means that on a weak hit I still suffer a complication, but I also gain +1 momentum, showing that I've made concrete progress toward getting back in the fight.
Ultimately I think that with the mechanical benefits of the move that I'm going to side with John Risus on this one and use Face Danger for things that are attacking me that I can't do anything about (dodging arrows, thrown boulders, etc) and instead move toward utilizing Secure an Advantage when I would make a Face Danger against an enemy.
The example I'm seeing in my head as I explain this is the fight between Bronn and Ser Vardis in season 1 of Game of Thrones. Bronn spends the entire fight retreating, but he's not Facing Danger, he's actually making a series of Secure an Advantage moves using his agility and skill to avoid damage until he found an opening and kills Ser Vardis.
youtube.com - Game of Thrones: Bronn vs Ser Vardis Egan
If your progress bar is full, and your are having bad dice, getting a Strong Hit on another move instead would be frustrating.
ReplyDeleteMy RP way to get out of a fight with bad dice would be to start losing Spirit, become desperate, (Shadow-Kin asset?) and use The Last Stand (maybe RP the dice roll if it still isn't going my way).
Justin Gordon ... interesting. Secure an Advantage is currently defined as a proactive move you can take when you have initiative, while Face Danger is usually reactive when your foe has initiative. That's why part of the design intent behind Secure an Advantage has you in control, and is less dangerous than Face Danger where external threats might be blocking or opposing you.
ReplyDeleteIt could be argued, perhaps, that Bronn has initiative even when it looks like he doesn't, because he's using Secure an Advantage to goad his opponent into getting tired, swinging wildly, etc.
More grist for the mill for me, though. Thanks!
Shawn Tomkin If we restrict Secure an Advantage to when you have initiative, it would help winners keep winning but the loser would have to rely on Face Danger which leaves him with a Weak Hit (the most common result) robbing him of momentum while the opponent eventually grinds him down. Currently, as far as I'm aware the only ways to regain initiative once it is lost is to strong hit on a Clash or to make a Last Stand.
ReplyDeleteIn order to properly evoke the back and forth feel of combat, I feel like there either needs to be a way for the defensive party to build momentum to break out with a sudden clash, or a seperate move that would allow them to grab initiative.
There aren't currently a great deal of moves that explicitly affect Spirit, perhaps the way out is to add an option to the Clash move's Weak Hit that would allow you to trade some spirit for initiative, then you Secure advantage/Strike/End Fight.
If not that, then perhaps allow the player to take +1 harm on a weak hit in exchange for claiming initiative on the next "round", this could be explained as the character "leaning into the pitch" as it were, gaining an advantage in exchange for pain.
All good points, Justin Gordon. Last Stand does a lot of what I want it to do in this regard, but it's limited both thematically and mechanically as a last-resort move.
ReplyDeleteI'm noodling on it. It's a delicate balance.
One minor note: you can suffer the cost of a weak hit from Face Danger on any track (momentum, health, spirit or supply) if it's fictionally appropriate (or if you can bend the fiction to make it so). Momentum is kind of the default soak for this since it's much less costly, but having options so spread it around makes the hit on momentum less dire.
I know in the rules as written right now specify -1 momentum, it may be worth adjusting that to make it clear in the text of the move, but I think that may help to alleviate the problems I'm facing in combat. I'd definitely still be interested in continuing the conversation regarding ways to build momentum or help a solo character escape a rut of weak hits and power through
ReplyDeleteJustin Gordon . here's the text on the weak hit:
ReplyDelete"On a weak hit you do it, but encounter a minor cost, complication, concession or delay. Envision what happens, and suffer -1 momentum, health, spirit, or supply as appropriate to the circumstances."
It's obviously not very clear, but the intent was to give the user the flexibility to draw down any track -1 for whatever fit the particular circumstances.
May need to redraft if it's murky? Could present it as a typical bullet choice list, but that seemed not a great use of space to me originally.
As for the discussion, yes, totally. Let's keep this wall of text alive. I just need to give it some dedicated brain-space later when I'm clear of work.
Oh wow, I totally thought the sentence ended with -1 momentum, that completely changes things! I think that if I just read closer I would have noticed.
ReplyDeleteI'll keep pondering and update this if I think of anything good
So my fiance and I are discussing it and the more we talk it over the more I think the combat system is fine as is and that using the drives and goals of the NPCs to determine when they break and flee rather than waiting to trigger End the Fight.
ReplyDeleteThe confusion for me I guess is that when you Undertake a Journey, you expect to Reach Your Destination. When you Swear an Iron Vow you hope to one day Fulfill Your Vow.
I really like the idea of using moves like Compel or using the progress bars as a balance of power meter that eventually causes foe to flee based on the Oracle roll is great fiction first gaming. It raises the feeling that Finish the Fight is a bit of an odd duck in the Progress Moves family as you've mentioned previously. Based on our conversation and the play I've experienced so far, Finishing the Fight becomes the exception rather than the rule, which is cool and keeps the desperate feel of the combat wholly intact.
What I like most about staying fiction focused is that the existence of that move means there will be enemies that JUST WON'T RUN, paving the way for wild-eyed madmen or constructs/undead that can only be beaten by Finishing the Fight.
I think we're in sync now, I'll play test giving the enemies a little more incentive to run and see how that shakes out.
So Justin Gordon and I have been discussing this over dinner and while I'm usually more than happy to just roll with what he's saying, I may have made him rethink.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the author there is never any reason to end a fight with a kill 100% of the time. Sure we all love the gory battles and stabbing things in the eye/head, but it's not realistic.
Animals especially which Justin was discussing at dinner are heavy in the fight or flight, an animal may be more than willing to fight at the beginning, but as you wear it down/widdle away it's advantages (surprise/allies are great ones many animals employ) they're going to rethink and run. A pack of wolves is going to be brave until you stand to fight, starvation isn't really as big an influence as people think either (weakened and often starving wolves are loners. They aren't going to fight a healthy human, they'll find something already dead or dying.)
I really like the idea of End the Fight being an exception more than a rule. As someone playing a non-combat heavy character (which is hard on me, I live for the warrior types) I love the idea of not having to end a fight in blood shed or a strength my character may not have, instead it comes down to how well can she keep her fighting spirits up, and how well can she make that need for fight or flight in the opponent?
I probably explained this badly, I'm coming off a 9.5 hour holiday retail shift so I don't even know if I'm making sense at all.
Lysa Clarke and Justin Gordon ... that's totally it. At the minimum, I need to do a better job of making it rules-as-written rather than rules-as-implied.
ReplyDeleteThere is some inelegance with the combat progress track giving harm mechanical weight, but other options being loosey-goosey. That all sort of comes to head with the End the Fight move. It frustrates me. I've played with abstracting the combat progress track to simply represent combat advantage through whatever means, but that ends up competing with the function of the momentum track and screws up some of the harm-based asset abilities (which I think have their place).
I'm a bit proponent of pushing players away from the "to the death" mentality. I think there's some opportunities to refine things to make it all click together a bit better.
Also, I just want to say that having two people talking about Ironsworn over dinner makes me unreasonably giddy.
ReplyDeleteOne question that remains for me would be to ask that if any weak hit loses initiative, does any strong hit regain it?
ReplyDeleteFor example if I were to give ground (Face Danger +edge) and score a strong hit would that create an opening by which I could follow-up with a Strike or Secure an Advantage? If so then I think that basically nails it.
If anything I think saving a little space to discuss this topic in the Best Practices chapter is a must, just to get everybody going the same way.
Shawn Tomkin hahaha, it really is a fantastic game, you should be proud of what you've already accomplished :)
ReplyDeleteShawn Tomkin Right in the middle of Ruby Tuesdays while I shoved ribs in my face.
ReplyDeleteHopefully tonight I can sit down and fill out Siv's solo play and have a bit more feedback on that front!
Yeah, page 54:
ReplyDelete-------------------
For all moves, simply follow these guidelines:
- When you score a strong hit, you take or retain initiative.
- When you score a weak hit or miss, you lose initiative.
Suffer moves (see page 84) are an exception. These moves are made as a result of a weak hit or miss on another move, and are part of the narrative of that original move. The outcome of a suffer move should not shift initiative.
-------------------
I've tried to apply a rule to Ironsworn that, if there's a rule, it gets mentioned in multiple places to avoid having a single obsure rule sitting off in a corner somewhere. This could obviously using some tidying up.
And I wonder if I should rethink that exception for suffer moves? Taking the hit and getting fired up (or withstanding a moral blow and coming back swinging) works fine from a fictional perspective, and would encourage people to risk the hit on a Face Danger instead of just taking -1 momentum. Hmmmm.....
Ah, I my first read-through was quick so I could start playing. I'm off work tomorrow and I'm going to give the rules a thorough rereading. All sorts of hidden gems in there!
ReplyDeleteAlso I could totally see the strong hit on the suffer moves granting initiative in return. Embrace the Pain and Embrace the Darkness already offer +1 momentum, so the groundwork is there if the mechanical benefit wanted to be a little stronger. Worth thinking about for sure
Yeah. I am totally going to do that. It'll be a nice initiative relief valve for stuck players, encourage you to play risky, and fictionally is on point. Consider it RAW until I make the edits.
ReplyDeleteHas anyone thought of using "Compel" in a fight to goad their foes into a bad position?
ReplyDeleteFrom my understanding, you gain +1 momentum on a strong or weak hit.
+Toimu ... personally I'd handle that as Secure an Advantage +wits (or maybe +iron if you are being particularly aggressive about it). Compel would be fine, but they "ask something of you" on a weak hit might get a bit tough to parse in the fiction.
ReplyDeleteSecure an Advantage is also a little stronger in terms of your momentum rewards.
For the rulebook's purposes, I've mostly positioned Compel in combat as a move for surrendering or demanding surrender. There are other situations where it certainly could come up (enticing someone to join your side in the fight, for example).